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Hi all,

I'm a newby, so bear with me. I've ridden quads for years. I bought a Can Am 2017 650 outlander XT for me and a 570 outlander XT for my wife. Her's works great. Mine, not so much. The throttle is way too sensitive. If you move the thumb lever a thirty second of an inch in either direction, the quad either accelerates way to much or the engine brake comes on full. There is no dead spot between these two. If you are going downhill or are on a bumpy road, no human can hold the thumb lever still enough to keep from triggering either vast acceleration or nose-mashing engine braking.

I've done a lot of research on this. Several others have this same problem to one extent or another. I have not found a solution. I've read everything from buying new after-market clutches to removing the cups and springs in the one-way bearing (located in the primary clutch). I removed the cups and springs from my primary clutch and it does not disable the engine brake except in one condition: if you are on a slope and let off on your brake without touching the throttle (engine at idle), you will roll down the hill faster and faster until you goose or blip the throttle and then the engine brake comes on. This is a function of the drive belt catching when there is sufficient engine rpm to make it do so. Hence, blipping the throttle makes the clutch sheaves engage the belt which in turn engages engine braking.

There is no way to completely disable engine braking on a can-am quad.

I like the engine brake and the acceleration, but I don't like that there is no room between those two items on the throttle lever. My wife's 570 doesn't have that problem. Her lever has a good 1/4 to 1/2 inch of travel between accelerate and brake. This gives her control over accelerating and braking. If she wants to accelerate she pushes the lever. If she wants to slow down, she lets way off and the engine brake comes on.

I, on the other hand, am trying my best to keep the throttle lever from moving at all so I don't either make the brake come on or accelerate when what I'm trying to do is run at a steady speed over bad ground.

So, why am I telling you this? Because I'm hoping someone out there has a solution to this. A BUDS flash or something that would put some space between accelerate and brake on my throttle lever so that I am not constantly either speeding up or slowing down and thrashing around like a rag doll on my quad.
 

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So your saying if I remove the stuff on one way bearing that my engine brake will act normal except if I stop on a down hill press brakes than let it roll again ?

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
 

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Hi all,

I'm a newby, so bear with me. I've ridden quads for years. I bought a Can Am 2017 650 outlander XT for me and a 570 outlander XT for my wife. Her's works great. Mine, not so much. The throttle is way too sensitive. If you move the thumb lever a thirty second of an inch in either direction, the quad either accelerates way to much or the engine brake comes on full. There is no dead spot between these two. If you are going downhill or are on a bumpy road, no human can hold the thumb lever still enough to keep from triggering either vast acceleration or nose-mashing engine braking.

I've done a lot of research on this. Several others have this same problem to one extent or another. I have not found a solution. I've read everything from buying new after-market clutches to removing the cups and springs in the one-way bearing (located in the primary clutch). I removed the cups and springs from my primary clutch and it does not disable the engine brake except in one condition: if you are on a slope and let off on your brake without touching the throttle (engine at idle), you will roll down the hill faster and faster until you goose or blip the throttle and then the engine brake comes on. This is a function of the drive belt catching when there is sufficient engine rpm to make it do so. Hence, blipping the throttle makes the clutch sheaves engage the belt which in turn engages engine braking.

There is no way to completely disable engine braking on a can-am quad.

I like the engine brake and the acceleration, but I don't like that there is no room between those two items on the throttle lever. My wife's 570 doesn't have that problem. Her lever has a good 1/4 to 1/2 inch of travel between accelerate and brake. This gives her control over accelerating and braking. If she wants to accelerate she pushes the lever. If she wants to slow down, she lets way off and the engine brake comes on.

I, on the other hand, am trying my best to keep the throttle lever from moving at all so I don't either make the brake come on or accelerate when what I'm trying to do is run at a steady speed over bad ground.

So, why am I telling you this? Because I'm hoping someone out there has a solution to this. A BUDS flash or something that would put some space between accelerate and brake on my throttle lever so that I am not constantly either speeding up or slowing down and thrashing around like a rag doll on my quad.
it's even toucher on mine lol, but the only way i know around it is to do what you have stated
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
So your saying if I remove the stuff on one way bearing that my engine brake will act normal except if I stop on a down hill press brakes than let it roll again ?

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
Yes. As long as the engine is at idle RPM (around 1250), there is no engine braking without the cups and springs. I believe this is because, at idle, the primary clutch sheaves are wide apart and the belt is running on the one-way bearing without touching the sheaves. This actually helps my situation a tiny bit as it seems like the engine brake is not engaging quite as fast as it does with cups and springs. As soon as you give it a little throttle, the counter weights in the primary clutch swing out which brings the sheaves into contact with the belt. You can feel it happen.
 

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I'm with Jeff, the 1000's are brutal. I had my ecu reflashed to remove the decell. In other words it doesn't completely shut off the fuel when you let go of the flipper. That helped a lot, as for the acceleration, I can't get enough of that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I'm with Jeff, the 1000's are brutal. I had my ecu reflashed to remove the decell. In other words it doesn't completely shut off the fuel when you let go of the flipper. That helped a lot, as for the acceleration, I can't get enough of that.
This sounds really interesting. Can you tell me more about it? Who reflashed your ECM and how can I have that done? Mechanically, what exactly do you mean by "Remove the decell?" Does it change how your throttle lever works? Does it give you more room between accelerate and brake? Does it give you a better, smoother ride?

Thanks for posting this. This is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for. Much better than, "You need to learn how to feather the throttle."
 

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Got the ecu done at monster tune, he's over in Ontario. You just fill out the request sheet and send it, four bolts to re and re simple. Mechanically you don't remove anything, its the way the ecu delivers fuel. Send Steve an email @ monster he will be happy to explain the works. I had my ecu done and a fuel tuner built by the man and his work is top notch.

I live in the mountains of BC and ride down some serious hills, having the ecu done made A world of difference. There's nothing you can do about the mechanical aspects of the throttle but some decent clutching doesn't hurt.

Keep the Q&A coming and we'll try to answer.
 

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I haven't made much progress toward solving the problem with my 650 Outlander. My plan is to send the ECU to Monster in Ontario for flashing (as per Stovepiper's recc above). Before I did that, I had to get my performance-key re-registered by the local dealership, which is on the other side of the Warner Mountains so it took me a while to get that done.

I've been in conversations with Monster and they have a bunch of parameters they can edit in the ECU. I assume they are using BUDS to do it. We are shooting for a smoother take-off and less engine brake. Not sure if this will address the throttle lever problem (where if you move the thumb lever a micro-inch, you either rocket ahead with acceleration or slam back with engine brake). Only way to tell that is to try the flash and see. One nice thing about their service, you can get as many re-flashes as you need for free. Just pay shipping.

If this doesn't solve the throttle problem, I will be looking at aftermarket primary clutches (plan-B ). I'm more than a little puzzled that Can-am hasn't addressed this considering how many customers it affects. I keep hearing things like, "You need to learn how to feather the throttle," or "It just needs to break in more." I've been riding a lot of different ATVs for a lot of years and have never had a problem like this before. And, I know how to feather a throttle.

I'll keep you posted on my progress. Sorry it is so slow but that's what happens when you live in a rural paradise, 30 miles from the nearest grocery store.
 

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I changed my primary to a QSC and that made a world of difference, Silky smooth. But she still goes like a scalded cat only much nicer power delivery.
 

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The problem you have described sounds like you have too much "tip in" and "tip out" . This is something that tuners can modify. Basically, it is the speed at which the throttle body butterfly reacts to changes in input. Too much " in or out" would cause the throttle body to react very quickly which could result in erratic behaviour. In other words, you would need to modify the throttle response to be less sensitive.

Dyno tuners in the automotive world can fool a customer to make it appear their engine is putting out more power than they actually are by increasing "tip in" throttle response to be much faster which makes it appear you are making more horsepower.

Carmen
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Reply to Redfire: thanks for your information. You have used some terms new to me. Exactly what is "tip in" and "tip out".? By tuners, do you mean the folks at Monster Tune? Hope so. If tip in and tip out are regulated by the ECU and modified using BUDS, then it sounds like I'm on the right track.

carey
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Stovepiper, how does the CVTech primary clutch (recommended by Monster) compare to the QSC?

Here's the CVT clutch: http://www.atvtirescanada.com/en/product/cvtech-trailbloc-performance-primary-clutch#.WcwOimhSxPY

"this clutch is BETTER than any clutch kit on the market." so they say B)

I looked up the QSC and it is $1,110. The CVT is under $500. Do you think the QSC is more than twice as good? Just wondering. I guess there's no way to tell without buying them both and comparing them in your own ride. Unless, of course, someone has already done that.

carey
 

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Reply to Redfire: thanks for your information. You have used some terms new to me. Exactly what is "tip in" and "tip out".? By tuners, do you mean the folks at Monster Tune? Hope so. If tip in and tip out are regulated by the ECU and modified using BUDS, then it sounds like I'm on the right track.

carey
Tip in / out are the speed at which the motor that rotates the butterfly in the throttle body reacts. In other words, if you had a high "tip in" value, that would mean as soon as you touched the throttle lever, the butterfly would instantly open or respond. Think of this as aggressive movement. If the "tip in" value is reduced, then when you hit the throttle, the butterfly would respond slower or have a slight delay. This would be much less aggressive behaviour.

When I said "tuner", I was referring to people/companies that make custom ECU mappings that change the performance of your ATV. Monster would be one of these types of companies. I am sure if you discussed your issue with them, they could accommodate your goals.
 

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I kind of forgot about fiddling with the IAVC. Maybe I should try it before I spend a bunch of money on flashing and clutches. Below is the NOTICE you pasted from the shop? manual. What does "Engine stop on deceleration" mean? Also, how much distance or dead space do you have on your thumb lever between slow down and go faster? Did removing the IACV affect the throttle thumb lever action? If you'll remember, I started this thread by talking about the total lack of dead space between stop and go on my throttle lever. That is still the main problem. Since there doesn't seem to be an adjustment for this, I'm looking at all these other ways of accomplishing this basic stupid thing that affects everything about the quad's performance. AND still wondering why Can-Am let them go out the door with this problem. AND wishing I'd been more proactive while my quad was still under warranty.

I'm welding a class IV hitch to the back of my fifth-wheel trailer right now (to pull ATV's or a horse trailer behind the fifth-wheel camper) but as soon as I finish that, I'll give this a whirl and let you know. thanks for reminding me about this simple solution.

Quote from other thread referred to by Ozy

Not sure how you got it adjusted, as there is no adjustment. :TgC_emoticon142:

But yes, I have had a similar experience when my 2012 G2 was new.

I was blaming the cluctch set up, but it was an engine problem.

With my bike in neutral, I would try and raise the engine rpm slowly with the throttle. My rpm's would jump significantly from just above idle to 1800rpm.

I had no inbetween and that meant that I couldn't feather the throttle whilst slowing down.

It was worse in low range and especially when carrying a passenger.

To fix it, I removed the IACV (Idle air control valve) from the throttle body. I then did what the manual states "not to do".

I carefully cycled the piston of the valve in and out a few times and re-installed it into the throttle body.

The engine started with a flutter and ran erratically for a short period of time then settled down.

Over the course of the next few rides the ECM relearnt the settings for the idle and it now runs perfectly.

No more issues and no codes were ever produced.

There is also a setting for the IACV that your dealer can do as well.

Here is what lead me to thinking that it may be an idle issue, as it felt as if the engine was cutting out when decelerating and thus giving the feel of severe engine braking.

post-7829-0-36094700-1439185456.jpg
 

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Like you, I had no smooth transition (dead zone) from idle to to say 1800 - 2000rpm. This meant that on take off, the bike would take off with a learch, then when riding down hill, the engine breaking would engage way to aggressively especially whilst in low range.

"Engine stop on deceleration", is what made me think I had an engine issue, rather than a clutching issue.

Like you have already found out, the engine breaking is more agressive if the belt drops to the oneway. I couldn't hold the motor at any point between idle and around 2000rpm. So when decelerating I couldn't get a smooth engagement of the engine breaking.

Doing what I suggested fixed the issue.

I do a lot of slow technical riding and a lot of 2up. I ride with several guys that have 800's and 1000's and they have all stated at one time or another how much better the 650's perform in the technical stuff. That's why I own one.

This fix worked for me and the way I see it, you've got nothing to loose and you don't have to shell out $1K to try it.
 

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Carey while i think all suggested can help lessen the effects of the engine break i can't see a few of the things mentioned curing your problem, as yours seems more like a defect, as your reporting more than just aggressive engine breaking your not use to. Ozy Is the residential Can am doctor here along with 7mag and i would mess with the IACV valve first. I had this issue after a reflash and the IACV was the problem, in my case it took a few times adjusting but after i got it to where it needed to be it was fine. next i would check to see if you have the wedge on the throttle body, with out the wedge the throttle can be a bit touchy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Ozy,

I pulled the IACV this morning. I may not be pushing hard enough on it, but the piston does not seem to move at all. It feels like it is frozen. This quad has less than 10 hours on it and has been stored inside. Don't think it is corroded, but I am afraid if I push much harder it will break. Does your IACV piston move in and out freely or is it really hard to push in and out?

Please answer right away, as I am standing here next to my quad in the garage with my hair on fire waiting for your answer. :flame:

Also, if someone else knows the answer, feel free to reply.

Thanks!!

c
 

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Never mind getting back to me with an answer. I was able to cycle the IACV by plugging it in (with it removed from the intake) and turning the key on and off. I was also able to push it in all the way with my thumb past where it goes turning the key on and off. I did both several times and then remounted the IACV. It idled erratically for a while and then it straighten itself out.

After some test runs, this seems to have helped my overall problem a little; however, not well enough to stop trying other things. I removed the ECU and will ship that off to Ontario tomorrow to be flashed by Monster. I'll keep you posted.

By the way, one of the many sounds you hear after you turn off your engine? It's the IACV fully retracting its piston into its cylinder housing. It has a unique scritching sound kind of like crickets. (Or is mine the only one that makes that noise because it's bad.) :wall: :wheelie:
 
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