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800 vs. 800R


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#1 CanAmInMaine

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 07:41 PM

Okay this may be a stupid question but is there a difference between an 800 and an 800R?

#2 crewdog506

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 10:31 AM

the 800 (actually HO) is 2006-2008. R is for the 09-10 models. The intake, air filter, ECMs are different. More power, actually the 2010 has more power than the 09, I can't remember the numbers though. The 09-10 models have a lightened low end grunt, but the top end is better. I think the cams are different as well, but don't quote me on that, one of the cam guru's will chime in on that note.

#3 Wolffmann34

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 10:53 AM

the 800 (actually HO) is 2006-2008. R is for the 09-10 models. The intake, air filter, ECMs are different. More power, actually the 2010 has more power than the 09, I can't remember the numbers though. The 09-10 models have a lightened low end grunt, but the top end is better. I think the cams are different as well, but don't quote me on that, one of the cam guru's will chime in on that note.



Hey I thought I heard somewhere also that the 2010 has more power than 09', but I've been looking for documentation on it and can not find any. I wonder if that is just a rumor or if there are any facts to back it up (not including 'I smoked my buddy on his 09')

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#4 Go Hard

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 11:25 AM

I think that BRP actually has that printed in the sales brochure?

800R has;
Different (ECM and Gauge programming).
Different Cams
Different Injectors
Different intake
different bottom half of the air box.
Different air filter
Different fuel tank and fuel pump.

2010 800R has different programming again.
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#5 107ernegade

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 11:33 AM

I believe the 09s had 9% more power than the 07-08 and the 010 have 2 or 3 more hp than the 09.

#6 CanAmInMaine

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 09:20 PM

Okay this may be a stupid question but is there a difference between an 800 and an 800R?


Thanks everyone!

#7 Wolffmann34

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 10:33 PM

I think that BRP actually has that printed in the sales brochure?

800R has;
Different (ECM and Gauge programming).
Different Cams
Different Injectors
Different intake
different bottom half of the air box.
Different air filter
Different fuel tank and fuel pump.

2010 800R has different programming again.



Just out of curiosity, I went through all of the 2010 documentation. And they don't indicate any changes to the engine or it's power output. In fact all of the numbers for the 09 and 10 that I found for claimed horsepower were 71 or 72 for both of them.

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#8 bkab

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 10:46 PM

my documentation somewhere said my 09 has 68.something horsepower and the 2010s are supposed to have 71

#9 Go Hard

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 08:49 AM

Just out of curiosity, I went through all of the 2010 documentation. And they don't indicate any changes to the engine or it's power output. In fact all of the numbers for the 09 and 10 that I found for claimed horsepower were 71 or 72 for both of them.



LOL,

I pay no attention to all that nonsense anyway because, I'm just gonna change it anyway! So it looks like we need the 2006 timing on the bottom end and 2009-2010 in the mid and top end along with the 8250 rev limit but the 125 kph speed limiter has to go!
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#10 gadewv

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 09:04 AM

LOL,

I pay no attention to all that nonsense anyway because, I'm just gonna change it anyway! So it looks like we need the 2006 timing on the bottom end and 2009-2010 in the mid and top end along with the 8250 rev limit but the 125 kph speed limiter has to go!



So, if somone happened to have an 07 with HMF utility and 09 intake and a PCIII,Uni, Comet clutch and future TwinAir and stm secondary, would that someone be better off sticking with the 07 cams and 07 flash? or get 09 cams and keep 07 flash? or 09 cams with 09 flash? or MrRpm cams and so on....... hahahaha

I still havent seen anyone figure out the perfect combo of all this stuff without going crazy with the microsquirt and BBK. I actaully found a race ECM, but I dont think its worth the $ for the gains I would get.

What to do? what to do?

I just wish someone out there would come out and say that "this is the best set up for most power out of the rotax without going crazy on the motor.
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#11 Go Hard

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 11:21 AM

Good things to come my friend, good things to come!

So far, this is what I found, the 2007-2008 come's out of the hole hard, it will take the 2009 everytime (speaking from my personal experience). Then the 2009 will pull ahead in about 100' and keep pulling, maybe 1-3 length's depending on mods!

So I said it has to be the cam, so I put 2007 cams in (waste of time) No difference. So I put a 2007 ECM on my 2009 and wham, there's the bottom end! I did not dial the fuel in so I didn't see it's full potential! (I didn't have time to tune it, I had to get the STM clutches calibrated, + I will be putting my 1004cc in and I will have to start all over again). I have tried, heavy weight, light weight, high spring forec, low spring force, progressive springs, etc. 6 Dalton arms, 3 Dalton arms. I will save all of you some cash, if you have a 2009 and want it to respond better, just put in a Dalton spring (with stock size tires) If you have big tires, you will probably slip your belt from time to time.

So with all of the combinations, they all work good but some work better in the launch, some work better in the mid, etc.

Some of you may say that what I am about to write is because I sell the stuff, well the reason I sell the stuff is because it works!

If you have a 2006-2008 here is what will work;

-Cheapest HP / feel for the $ is the 2009 intake update kit! (but it is useless without a downdraft type filter) so unless you are going to fabricate one yourself, the OEM and Twin Air are the only option. The OEM is a throw away so that leaves on filter!

-Next, you now have a better intake a filter, you need more air flow to the air box, so you can either port your air box, install a larger snorkel, or just put on a EHS lid!.

-Ok, so now you have a choked of exhaust, run a slip on from any company, run a full system if you have the extra $$$. Currently there are two options, Muzzy or LTE. I don't care for the RW, I could not find any numbers to support HP claims. My Muzzy system is good for one length on a 1/4 if tune close to proper!

-Now you will probably run lean in spots and a fuel controler will need to be added, Power commander is the only one that will let you take fuel away, there will be spots in the map that will be rich!

-Now you have more power, so clutching maybe needed.

I will say this again, my 2009 comes out of the hole like a 2007 now with my STM roller (dual angle helix).

So my answer is yes, all the 2009 goodies will help the 2006 and up, would I run a 2007 ECM on the 2009-2010 bike, NO. I think there is more to be gained by the mid and top end, if you are in heavy mud or hill climbing, you are already spinning big rpm's, the 2009 is just a little more controlable on the bottom, is it as much fun, NO!

There you have it, no secrets, no turbo's, not BBK's!

Do you need any of the above??? The answer is NO, you do not need anything! The stock bike works fine but a frame mod of some sort could save you $3000-$3500!

Hope this helps some?
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Posted 09 December 2009 - 11:51 AM

I think best bang for buck would be a full pipe (or even slip on), 09 intake with an $850 programmer is the best options. Next bore the tb and 09 cams. Then clutching.

#13 gadewv

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 06:21 PM

Thanks for the input guys!

So, we know what the guys with the 09 need to get the bottom end back like the 07, but an 07 with the same stm secondary should be SICK out of the hole!

BUT how do us guys with the 06-08 get the mid and top end compared to an 09? cams? or is it all in the ecm?

800Vtwin: can you explain the $850 programmer? I assume your talking bout the one that has been discussed on the other forum? PM me if ya want.

Edited by gadewv, 09 December 2009 - 06:23 PM.

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#14 BrianEyler

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 07:56 PM

GoHard, Thanks for the info and sharing your findings. I have an 09' and am debating on what mods to do - I primarily drag race it. Two quick questions:

1) What does the Dalton spring do for the 09 in terms of acceleration? Will it make a difference in a 500ft race?
2) What do you think a full muzzy is worth in 500ft? How about a slip on in 500ft? (Both compared to stock)

Much appreciated.

Edited by BrianEyler, 09 December 2009 - 07:57 PM.


#15 FatTireRacer

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 08:04 PM

Good things to come my friend, good things to come!

So far, this is what I found, the 2007-2008 come's out of the hole hard, it will take the 2009 everytime (speaking from my personal experience). Then the 2009 will pull ahead in about 100' and keep pulling, maybe 1-3 length's depending on mods!

So I said it has to be the cam, so I put 2007 cams in (waste of time) No difference. So I put a 2007 ECM on my 2009 and wham, there's the bottom end! I did not dial the fuel in so I didn't see it's full potential! (I didn't have time to tune it, I had to get the STM clutches calibrated, + I will be putting my 1004cc in and I will have to start all over again). I have tried, heavy weight, light weight, high spring forec, low spring force, progressive springs, etc. 6 Dalton arms, 3 Dalton arms. I will save all of you some cash, if you have a 2009 and want it to respond better, just put in a Dalton spring (with stock size tires) If you have big tires, you will probably slip your belt from time to time.

So with all of the combinations, they all work good but some work better in the launch, some work better in the mid, etc.

Some of you may say that what I am about to write is because I sell the stuff, well the reason I sell the stuff is because it works!

If you have a 2006-2008 here is what will work;

-Cheapest HP / feel for the $ is the 2009 intake update kit! (but it is useless without a downdraft type filter) so unless you are going to fabricate one yourself, the OEM and Twin Air are the only option. The OEM is a throw away so that leaves on filter!

-Next, you now have a better intake a filter, you need more air flow to the air box, so you can either port your air box, install a larger snorkel, or just put on a EHS lid!.

-Ok, so now you have a choked of exhaust, run a slip on from any company, run a full system if you have the extra $$$. Currently there are two options, Muzzy or LTE. I don't care for the RW, I could not find any numbers to support HP claims. My Muzzy system is good for one length on a 1/4 if tune close to proper!

-Now you will probably run lean in spots and a fuel controler will need to be added, Power commander is the only one that will let you take fuel away, there will be spots in the map that will be rich!

-Now you have more power, so clutching maybe needed.

I will say this again, my 2009 comes out of the hole like a 2007 now with my STM roller (dual angle helix).

So my answer is yes, all the 2009 goodies will help the 2006 and up, would I run a 2007 ECM on the 2009-2010 bike, NO. I think there is more to be gained by the mid and top end, if you are in heavy mud or hill climbing, you are already spinning big rpm's, the 2009 is just a little more controlable on the bottom, is it as much fun, NO!

There you have it, no secrets, no turbo's, not BBK's!

Do you need any of the above??? The answer is NO, you do not need anything! The stock bike works fine but a frame mod of some sort could save you $3000-$3500!

Hope this helps some?


800VTwin:

I think best bang for buck would be a full pipe (or even slip on), 09 intake with an $850 programmer is the best options. Next bore the tb and 09 cams. Then clutching.


I hope someone pins these two quotes somewhere on this forum.

Sums things up very nicely.

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#16 Go Hard

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 11:31 PM

Thanks for the input guys!

So, we know what the guys with the 09 need to get the bottom end back like the 07, but an 07 with the same stm secondary should be SICK out of the hole!

BUT how do us guys with the 06-08 get the mid and top end compared to an 09? cams? or is it all in the ecm?

800Vtwin: can you explain the $850 programmer? I assume your talking bout the one that has been discussed on the other forum? PM me if ya want.


I HAVE POSTED THIS SOME PLACE ELSE. But the faster quad in this video is a 2008X with a 2009 intake update kit, pcv, STM roller, HMF Swamp, custom intake. The slower gade is a 2009X with a full Muzzy, PCV, both are running my custom dual maps. Notice how the 2009 starts gaining but the race it over, that was exactly a 1/4 mile. The 2008 cam out hard then pulled real hard to the mid than the 2009 started gaining ground. We ran out of time testing but I have been pulling on the 2008, there is no vid of me of course!

Watch the vids a few times and you can see how the 2009 picks up but not quite enough! Oh and the fast gade is running 26" tires, the 2009 is running the stocker holeshots.


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#17 HIGHOCTANE

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 11:09 AM

I have tried, heavy weight, light weight, high spring forec, low spring force, progressive springs, etc. 6 Dalton arms, 3 Dalton arms. I will save all of you some cash, if you have a 2009 and want it to respond better, just put in a Dalton spring (with stock size tires) If you have big tires, you will probably slip your belt from time to time.


Interesting!
Just to clarify you are talking about an Outlander here right? I know the Rene weights are said to be a better for acceleration than the Outty weights and some even claim the Daltons are just a copy of the Rene weights. Anyway, I have never heard that the Stock Outty weights with the dalton spring work better than 3 or 6 Daltons...not doubting you,just would like more info on how the Stock weights with the Dalton Gr/yell spring compare to say the 3 daltons/3 stockers same spring,including what rivets you tested in the Daltons.



Thanks

BTW on the topic of clutching one thing I have noticed about the Can-Am clutching compared to my Polaris 850 clutching(Roller secondary) is that the Can-Am clutching just not really hold any peak power RPM very tightly under WOT...it kind has a wide range,ie is flashes to say 4500-5000 and then the RPMS climb as you accelerate and continue to climb to and through peak power RPM. The RPM it would flash to got better with the clutch kit,ie upshift delayed...say 5000-5500.
The Polaris would flash to peak power RPM,say 7100, almost instantly when you nailed it from a stop and it would hold that RPM +/_ maybe 100 until the clutches were fully shifted..
The Can-Am works alot different,it doesn't really hold an RPM the same way. Not sure if it is the Roller secondary or what? Also it seems that the Polaris clutches can get to a lower ratio,I say that because of how quickly it flashes to peak power RPM.
With that said the Can-Am still outperforms the 850...I tend to think though that it would do even better if the clutches worked like the 850s do...anythoughts on if most of the difference is likely the roller secondary on the Polaris?

Just thinking out loud

Edited by HIGHOCTANE, 12 December 2009 - 11:12 AM.


#18 Wolffmann34

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 10:26 PM

Interesting!
Just to clarify you are talking about an Outlander here right? I know the Rene weights are said to be a better for acceleration than the Outty weights and some even claim the Daltons are just a copy of the Rene weights. Anyway, I have never heard that the Stock Outty weights with the dalton spring work better than 3 or 6 Daltons...not doubting you,just would like more info on how the Stock weights with the Dalton Gr/yell spring compare to say the 3 daltons/3 stockers same spring,including what rivets you tested in the Daltons.



Thanks

BTW on the topic of clutching one thing I have noticed about the Can-Am clutching compared to my Polaris 850 clutching(Roller secondary) is that the Can-Am clutching just not really hold any peak power RPM very tightly under WOT...it kind has a wide range,ie is flashes to say 4500-5000 and then the RPMS climb as you accelerate and continue to climb to and through peak power RPM. The RPM it would flash to got better with the clutch kit,ie upshift delayed...say 5000-5500.
The Polaris would flash to peak power RPM,say 7100, almost instantly when you nailed it from a stop and it would hold that RPM +/_ maybe 100 until the clutches were fully shifted..
The Can-Am works alot different,it doesn't really hold an RPM the same way. Not sure if it is the Roller secondary or what? Also it seems that the Polaris clutches can get to a lower ratio,I say that because of how quickly it flashes to peak power RPM.
With that said the Can-Am still outperforms the 850...I tend to think though that it would do even better if the clutches worked like the 850s do...anythoughts on if most of the difference is likely the roller secondary on the Polaris?

Just thinking out loud



That's interesting HO, the way you describe the Polaris it sounds to me that it is just like the way my Renegade accelerates. When I hit WOT my Gade shoots up to around 7150 and holds there until about 60 some MPH, and then gradually climbs until I hit the governed speed which I guess is 78 MPH. I am surprised your Outlander has such a low shift out RPM.

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#19 HIGHOCTANE

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 12:08 AM

That's interesting HO, the way you describe the Polaris it sounds to me that it is just like the way my Renegade accelerates. When I hit WOT my Gade shoots up to around 7150 and holds there until about 60 some MPH, and then gradually climbs until I hit the governed speed which I guess is 78 MPH. I am surprised your Outlander has such a low shift out RPM.



For one it Gade has better clutching that the Outty..
Is that from a roll or a stop? The Outty does ok from a roll...but from a stop it is like taking off in 2nd gear...like the clutch can not downshift to a low enough ratio...
I don't remeber exactly,been a while since I had the stock clutching but nailing from a stop with stock clutching it wouldn't hit 7000 until over 40 MPH in High,think it was closer to 50 actually. With the Dalton kit it is better,but still the 0-20mph is weak IMO...maybe a secondary adjustment is needed?

Edited by HIGHOCTANE, 13 December 2009 - 12:10 AM.


#20 Wolffmann34

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 08:09 PM

For one it Gade has better clutching that the Outty..
Is that from a roll or a stop? The Outty does ok from a roll...but from a stop it is like taking off in 2nd gear...like the clutch can not downshift to a low enough ratio...
I don't remeber exactly,been a while since I had the stock clutching but nailing from a stop with stock clutching it wouldn't hit 7000 until over 40 MPH in High,think it was closer to 50 actually. With the Dalton kit it is better,but still the 0-20mph is weak IMO...maybe a secondary adjustment is needed?


Well that is typically from a roll on of around 20-30mph. But yes from a stop it pretty much does the same thing, if the ground is soft enough the tires spin and it revs past 7200 for a moment, but then settles in at 7150. If the ground has enough traction to hook up, well then I wheelie and have to let out of the throttle, so I don't know then.

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